View Full Version : Rack and pinion with an I beam front end. Anybody done it?
Just toying with build up ideas on the Jago coupe. I'm thinking steering rack fitted to the back of the I beam, slip joint on the steering shaft, and away we go.
I'm determined not to re-invent the wheel with this build, (like I did with the Morris, quarter elliptic springs, electric water pump etc) but it seems such an easy simple idea compared to running a conventional steering box.
Just looking for some piccies, info, links etc, not an argument about whether it is untraditional or looks strange.
Sqweaka
17-11-07, 04:41 PM
dave'29ford has just fitted a new beam with a rack behind it !! it just works on one side like a box think he got it from the states. nicked this from his photo album
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/Dave29Ford/DSC03960.jpg
langysrodshop
17-11-07, 07:02 PM
Paul i had a Escort rack on my 29A coupe and its an excellent way to go, Can't be seen on a fendered car, If you set it up nicely you don't need a sliding joint either.
Although my coupe was Pro streeted it would out handle most things.
http://usera.imagecave.com/stevelangylang/NSRA/DRIVINGHARD.jpg
langysrodshop
17-11-07, 07:06 PM
Unfortunately that's not a axle mounted Rack.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/Dave29Ford/DSC03960.jpg[/QUOTE]
Steve, I'm guessing you need the final steering shaft u/j on the centreline of the hairpins? Got any pics of the way you had yours setup?
Sqweaka, that's more like cross steering there, using the rack device instead of a steering box. Better than using a steering box, but not quite what I'm envisioning.
Paul i had a Escort rack on my 29A coupe and its an excellent way to go, Can't be seen on a fendered car, If you set it up nicely you don't need a sliding joint either.
Although my coupe was Pro streeted it would out handle most things.
langysrodshop
17-11-07, 07:25 PM
Didn't have a digital camera in them days Paul, But your right about set up.
4x4100E
17-11-07, 08:04 PM
My mates done it a few times and its always worked perfectly. I can't remember what sliding section he used, but the rack was off a fiat cinqucento.
Matt
scottie
17-11-07, 09:59 PM
a mate had a golf rack on the back of his 40 ford beam on his 32 coupe, used a triumph column
scottie
I fitted a rack to the front beam axle on Pete Clements Ford Pilot years ago, worked perfect.
Dont know what the rack was, as Pete supplied everything, the slip joint used was a Chevy item of unknow model.
As said above, the rack steering shaft and slip joint has to be on the same horizontal plane as the hairpin/wishbones/four bars.
Not a good scan, but i found this photo in an old rod mag, , but basicly as i did Pete`s Pilot, though the shaft was more horizontal back to the U/J...
http://usera.imagecave.com/BRIZEY/rackSmall.jpg
Looks like it is definitly a 'doable' idea then. I'll keep my eyes open for a decent rack. Any suggestions for a source, to be mounted for right hand drive, behind the axle? I'd like something fairly robust, as it'll have a big block lump sitting just above it ;-)
4x4100E
18-11-07, 12:10 PM
Use the fiat one, its very narrow so will be hidden inside the chassis rails. Doesnt matter how strong a rack is surely.
Matt
Dave'29Ford
18-11-07, 12:34 PM
Thats my model A with a cross steer unit almost fitted. They cost 300 pounds/dollars but appear to be a simply converted rack which I think could be easily made for next to nowt.
Dave Mc
Use the fiat one, its very narrow so will be hidden inside the chassis rails. Doesnt matter how strong a rack is surely.
Matt
Quite a bit of stress on it when you're hauling the steering wheel back and forth at slow speed, or stopped. And if you hit a kerb or speed bump wrong you'll get a lot of shock loading through it.
When I built my T bucket in the Philippines I mounted a steering box on a 1/4" plate with a small gusset, and I was gob smacked just how much that bracket flexed when I turned the wheel at standstill. I added a tubular brace pretty smartish.
langysrodshop
18-11-07, 04:18 PM
Dave the Unisteer unit is for cross steer and won't work in a axle mounted situation.
Thats my model A with a cross steer unit almost fitted. They cost 300 pounds/dollars but appear to be a simply converted rack which I think could be easily made for next to nowt.
Dave Mc
Dave'29Ford
18-11-07, 05:04 PM
I know, but it seems to be a better idea. Why add unsprung weight when not neccesary?
langysrodshop
18-11-07, 05:06 PM
It may add a little unsprung weight but eliminates bump steer.
I know, but it seems to be a better idea. Why add unsprung weight when not neccesary?
Mounting the rack to the beam is not such a good idea - sooner or later the slip joint will lock up due to axle movement . This only happens in extreme conditions but that is normally when you need steering most!
My 32 has had r&p steering for the last thirty something years and it works well. zero bump steer - but ..... the rack has to be mounted so the steering arms are parellel to the ground and to do this with the usual Ford axles the rack is mounted to low. I used front stubs from a small truck that had the steering arms at the top of the axle and were bolted on - bit like a model A stub. I used a Morris Oxford rack and the steering arms from something Morris, I forget what, but they have Mowog cast on them so they are fairly old.The rack tucks up under the frame and looks OK even without fenders. I did not do this to be different but at the time there were no Vega or Mustang boxes and this was the best answer to get positive steering.I would not do it today - a vega box and cross steering is cheaper and much easier to fit. The cross steer racks like in the previous posts are ok but they hang down under the car a long way. Use a vega box and cross steering - don't reinvent the wheel.
Oh yes the other problem with having a r&p is at every event you go to at least one person will tell you that with a set up like that the car must be undriveable as everone knows that it will cause excessive bump steer! Nowday I just agree with them and say Yes you are right it doesn't work.
Use the fiat one, its very narrow so will be hidden inside the chassis rails. Doesnt matter how strong a rack is surely.
Matt
Rack strength varies from car to car , just like the size of track rod ends varies dependent on car weight. Within a rack the ends are often just pinned in place plus the actual rack and pinion drive gears are made stronger /cut deeper. If you go to a oneside rack then you are doubling the load on one end of the rack as instead of one end pushing while the other pulls one side is doing it all.
I use a Fiat rack, X19 or 127, these are a good size & if you need to skinny them down it's pretty easy, as long as you have some kind of slider in the shaft you are fine. Take a look at the 1 on my project.
langysrodshop
21-11-07, 09:07 AM
As i said in an earlier post if you set the rack/column up right you can get away without a sliding joint, Used mine daily & raced for 6 years and never had a problem.
I use a Fiat rack, X19 or 127, these are a good size & if you need to skinny them down it's pretty easy, as long as you have some kind of slider in the shaft you are fine. Take a look at the 1 on my project.
That looks pretty neat. I've browsed Ebay a bit looking at sizes and types of racks, but I reckon visiting the scrappy and having a proper eyeball would be best to get an idea of sizes. What slip joint are you using?
Is that a single leaf spring, or just the one fitted for buildup?
Mounting the rack to the beam is not such a good idea - sooner or later the slip joint will lock up due to axle movement .... .
Why should it lock up due to axle movement? If it is properly mounted, so it maintains alignment with no side forces, then it should perform its function and slip in and out as required.
4x4100E
21-11-07, 10:07 PM
I've never used a rack mounted on one side so you keep the steering box cross link to connect the wheels. Seems like a weird idea when you can just use the rack as normal?
Matt
Matt,the problem on a beam axle is that you need to mount it to the beam rather than to the axle otherwise it'll bumpsteer. Mounting it to the axle you have to allow for the whole assembly moving.
If you mount it onesided then you can still have the look of a trad drag link but without the inherent play in any steering box .
Kev
4x4100E
21-11-07, 10:16 PM
Ah right get it now. We just mounted them straight to the beam. The first time we tried it we went through a couple of bracket designs as its quite difficult to prevent flex.
Matt
I just used the 3/4"DD shaft from Flaming Rivers & then used the DD shaft that fits over the outside of the 3/4" DD that they make. I have my steering shaft that is about 18" long , the outer shaft is fixed to the top u joint & the inner to the bottom joint, this way it looks like a normal shaft, but it slides.Yes it is a mono leaf spring, if it breaks I'll take it back to him, as he's only down the road from me.
OK I found the pictures.take a look
OK I found the pictures.take a look
That looks neat and tidy, thanks for the pics.
I have to get mine to fit around a big fat FE motor, but I'm sure I can find a way, where's there's method there's madness, as they say. ;-)
Biggest problem I see with trying to keep the suspension arc and steering arc in line (to limit the slip required) is with split 'bones or hairpins - they are usually longer than four-bars and mount back near the cowl, so the column would have to be near vertical with a near-90* angle at the bottom of the column.
Biggest problem I see with trying to keep the suspension arc and steering arc in line (to limit the slip required) is with split 'bones or hairpins - they are usually longer than four-bars and mount back near the cowl, so the column would have to be near vertical with a near-90* angle at the bottom of the column.
With this type of setup, you don`t need to limit the amount of slip. Andy.
The steering and suspension arcs don`t have to travel in the same arcs when using slip joints or sliding shafts, they`re there to compensate for the difference in arcs travelled.
Maximum slip with Biffos setup would probably be within 1/2".
Borgeson actually sell both shafts as an item for steering slip shaft/collapsible column applications, as well as a neat slip shaft for late model Mustangs complete with a rubber boot where the shafts meet to keep dirt out...
http://usera.imagecave.com/BRIZEY/94-00Mustang_assem.jpg
How tight are these 'slip-fit' sections, Brian? The collapsible OEM versions I have seen have had a plastic shear-pin moulded in to prevent slack under normal operation. If the sliding joints are good enough for use in an axle-mounted application then that could be the answer on one of my projects.
langysrodshop
22-11-07, 07:54 PM
Good when i tried them, Almost no sideways movement at all.
Andy, the slip fit sections i`ve seen have a nice sliding action with minimal movement, both sideways and rotational.
Borgeson do two versions of the slip sections. One has two holes in, and is intended for collapsible column applications (SVA guys take note), the other version has no holes and is intended as a slip shaft only, as per Biffo`s B400 above.
The only thing with Borgeson, and Flaming River products, are their prices, but then again, what price safety, eh!.
Borgeson manufacture replacement sliding shafts for a lot of US cars and trucks,
Check out Borgeson`s site...
http://borgeson.com/products.htm
FWIW I noticed those small forward control Japanese vans use a one ended rack. I wondered if they would be easily adaptable for a rod. Anyone seen them too?
We used a rack on the Clockwork orange, mounted under the floor in a push pull stylee. One long tubular link to a trad style ford steering arm got the job done tidily.
Mart.
FWIW I noticed those small forward control Japanese vans use a one ended rack. I wondered if they would be easily adaptable for a rod. Anyone seen them too?
We used a rack on the Clockwork orange, mounted under the floor in a push pull stylee. One long tubular link to a trad style ford steering arm got the job done tidily.
Mart.
This was mentioned earlier in the thread Mart, but I think all the do is replace a steering box, whereas what I hope to do is build a better overall system, with zero bump steer and nice compact geometry.
FWIW I noticed those small forward control Japanese vans use a one ended rack. I wondered if they would be easily adaptable for a rod. Anyone seen them too?
We used a rack on the Clockwork orange, mounted under the floor in a push pull stylee. One long tubular link to a trad style ford steering arm got the job done tidily.
Mart.
I had one of those racks from a Bedford Rascal van (same as the japanese vans), mounted on my roadster about 7 years ago. It was mounted backwards inside the frame rail and connected to an idler arm. This arm was connected to a shaft going through the frame rail to another arm, to which was connected the drag link. It lasted about 4 months as it felt a bit spongy and vague. The hole for the shaft is still in the frame rail!!!...
Brizey , tried the same thing on my old Hi-riding Capri back whenever, one of 3 steering systems I tried . Didn't like it then , even in the garage, like it even less now I've seen inside a rack
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