View Full Version : Kickdown cable Question ?
Skimmer
21-12-08, 06:12 PM
Just had my gearbox rebuilt and so fitted the gearbox builder told me that the kickdown cable hadnt been connected previously which was part of the cause of it breaking ...........So on putting everything together i go to put kickdown cable to carb so on full throttle cable is on full travel out , the trouble is that the best i can do even making a cam type thing is just under half k/d cable out on full throttle ....so can i get a kit ,universal or whatever to do the travel so that when its in on tickover, and full out on full throttle .....sorry to go on !! .....Its a Rover 4.6 and Borg warner 66 autobox , the carb is a edelbrock 500.........Any info would be good , thanks Mark.............
Not sure I understand the question fully mate. Is the setup you have not pulling the cable enough?
My GM180 box only needed the cable to be pulled about 6mm, right as you got to full throttle. Is yours like that, or does it need a lot more cable to be pulled at the same amount as the throttle?
Borg Warner cable controls ALL the shifts by moving a shuttle inside the box. Without it fitted the box will think you are on light throttle all the time and will generate slip and consequent heat.
The cable needs to be move in the same relationship as the throttle ie cable should be taut but not stretched when on full throttle and a tiny amount of slack when idling.
Skimmer
22-12-08, 07:05 PM
Thats right Kev thats what the gearbox builder told me ..........
Borg Warner cable controls ALL the shifts by moving a shuttle inside the box. Without it fitted the box will think you are on light throttle all the time and will generate slip and consequent heat.
The cable needs to be move in the same relationship as the throttle ie cable should be taut but not stretched when on full throttle and a tiny amount of slack when idling.
Skimmer
22-12-08, 07:10 PM
Basically Paul without knowing the exact measurements , i did measure it but wrote it down on ??? so basically the throttle pulls the cable say 40mm but the cable needs say 90mm to be pulled to make the kickdown/gearbox work correctly without causing damage to the box which had happened in the past........the figures are just a guess...
Not sure I understand the question fully mate. Is the setup you have not pulling the cable enough?
My GM180 box only needed the cable to be pulled about 6mm, right as you got to full throttle. Is yours like that, or does it need a lot more cable to be pulled at the same amount as the throttle?
Will the kickdown cable reach to the carb spindle where the throttle linkage attaches ?
Or do you still have the bracket attachment that fits at the bellhousing end of the manifold.
This how i did mine as a temporary quick fix 2 years ago:eek: LOL, its a 3.5 rover, 500 edelbrock and a 65 borgwarner box, don't know how similar they are to the 66 ?:confused:
Parts from B&Q:eek:, didn't half make a difference once i readjusted it !:D
I didn't have my cable fully in on tick over and my setup was a copy sizewize of the proper lever thingy, if you pull on it there's a stiff part which it has to go past to operate the kick down on full throttle which i adjusted between tests on the road to get to the "best" position
will add a pic of the proper lever when i find it !
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh228/pjspop/gearboxlink.jpg
real steel do a kit ...
all brackets and linkages...
steve r
Skimmer
22-12-08, 09:07 PM
Hopefully theres a pic here ,fingers crossed .....ill post whats what on next reply ...http://usera.ImageCave.com/SKIMMER/DSC00936.JPG
Skimmer
22-12-08, 09:11 PM
Right then as you can see the cable comes in from the right and attaches onto the carb to the left , in this position when on full throttle the cable is fully extended/out but it is about an inch n half out when on idle which means that the box doesnt work correctly i need the cable to be fully in on idle not as it is in the pic ?????...The cable has to go back in to the brass clip/shoulder...
You need to shorten the length of the pivot, thats between the spindle bit and the cable pivot, i remember, vaguely, doing it on the GM180 box, i think the hole was pretty close to where the crease is on the link :)
Mark, you basically (from memory when I used to do autoboxes) set the cable buy driving the car and you want it to xhange up on normal throttle so it goes into top gear at about 30 mph, its a bit of messing about driving stopping testing till you get it there.
Tony
You need to shorten the length of the pivot, thats between the spindle bit and the cable pivot, i remember, vaguely, doing it on the GM180 box, i think the hole was pretty close to where the crease is on the link :)
John on a gm180 the cable is only kick down, the bw35/65/66 need to be adjusted on the road to get the pressure/up change right
Ask Langy as Sue has the same setup on her Model A
John on a gm180 the cable is only kick down, the bw35/65/66 need to be adjusted on the road to get the pressure/up change right
Yep, i know that, but i never had one fitted, there a specific length for the ferruel to be crimped, just can't find the info :confused:
Skimmer
22-12-08, 09:42 PM
Tony thats what the gearbox matey said top gear at about 30 so your memory is still intact ..LOL....I just dont know how to adjust it as its like its in 2nd in the position in the pic ???....but ill keep listening to the advice as it all helps.....
Mark, you basically (from memory when I used to do autoboxes) set the cable buy driving the car and you want it to xhange up on normal throttle so it goes into top gear at about 30 mph, its a bit of messing about driving stopping testing till you get it there.
Tony
Borg Warner cable controls ALL the shifts by moving a shuttle inside the box. Without it fitted the box will think you are on light throttle all the time and will generate slip and consequent heat.
The cable needs to be move in the same relationship as the throttle ie cable should be taut but not stretched when on full throttle and a tiny amount of slack when idling.
I had 33 years in the auto trans business, take it from me Kev is spot on with this info! Also as Kev says the 180 info is not strictly relevant.
The term "kickdown cable" on the BW35,65 and 66 is incorrect and misleading as it's actually the "pressure control cable" which also gives you kickdown.
If Real Steel do a kit I'd be very tempted to get one and save yourself a load of messing.
The 66 ref you refer to was a bit of Borg Warner bull as its not a true 66 as in the Jaguar BW66 which had a lot of uprated parts but just a later 65.
Basically Paul without knowing the exact measurements , i did measure it but wrote it down on ??? so basically the throttle pulls the cable say 40mm but the cable needs say 90mm to be pulled to make the kickdown/gearbox work correctly without causing damage to the box which had happened in the past........the figures are just a guess...
I see there is no more thread on your adjuster, so pull the crimped on end off of the cable outer, and carefully saw through the curly bit, then pull it off. Pop the crimped end back on and re-install. I guess you need about 1/2" or so removed. or you could modify the bracket a bit so the cable adjuster is further over?
...http://usera.ImageCave.com/SKIMMER/DSC00936.JPG
I had 33 years in the auto trans business, take it from me Kev is spot on with this info! Also as Kev says the 180 info is not strictly relevant.
True. I ran my GM180 with no kick down cable for two years/5000 miles. The only thing that happened is that when I did finally hook it up I damn near soiled myself on the couple of occasions I DID use the throttle in anger.
It releases probably 50% more power, as it lets your motor spin up to 5000 instead of changing up at 3500rpm. And if you floor it in top at 30mph it changes down so hard you think your front wheels left the floor, especially when you have 4.5:1 rear gears. :D think it may even drop to first.
I see there is no more thread on your adjuster, so pull the crimped on end off of the cable outer, and carefully saw through the curly bit, then pull it off. Pop the crimped end back on and re-install. I guess you need about 1/2" or so removed. or you could modify the bracket a bit so the cable adjuster is further over?
If I remember rightly, due to the length of the stock carb lever (too short) it's not possible to get enough inner cable movement to achieve correct off throttle (idle pressure) and full throttle (full pressure). A longer lever is required but due to the proximity of the inlet manifold, there's not enough room.
A little inventiveness in the bracket/lever department I think is required or, as I previously sugggested, go the Real Steel route.
A simple carb spacer would give you the room you need, but as I said ask Langy coz Sue has the same set up
True. I ran my GM180 with no kick down cable for two years/5000 miles. The only thing that happened is that when I did finally hook it up I damn near soiled myself on the couple of occasions I DID use the throttle in anger.
It releases probably 50% more power, as it lets your motor spin up to 5000 instead of changing up at 3500rpm. And if you floor it in top at 30mph it changes down so hard you think your front wheels left the floor, especially when you have 4.5:1 rear gears. :D think it may even drop to first.
What I'm saying is that as Kev says, on the TH180 the kickdown cable is just that a, "kickdown cable" and thats all it does. It has no bearing on the well being of the trans, however without it your upshifts will be early and strictly for us older people. If it's not set up right it's no big deal and if it's missing your not going to hurt anything except maybe your pride.
In the case of the Borg Warner 35, 65 and 66 the correct adjustment and operation of the pressure control cable is crucial.
Cutting the end of will not work ,it's all about ratios ,just like a handbrake lever. The trans cable has to work in synch with the throttle cable travel/ throttle linkage. .
Imagine a lever ( throttle ) with the pivot in the middle,just like a seesaw .The throttle pulls it back one way and the trans cable is pulled the other. If they are equal say 60mm travel for both the distance from the centre can be equal.
However if you throttle travels 60mm and your cable only 30mm you need a 2:1 ratio to keep the travel realtive to each other.
If you can't make you own linkage using that info you'd be best to buy a kit ( Pop Browns also supply) as it's going to work out far cheaper than another rebuild.;)
Cutting the end of will not work ,it's all about ratios ,just like a handbrake lever. The trans cable has to work in synch with the throttle cable travel/ throttle linkage. .
Imagine a lever ( throttle ) with the pivot in the middle,just like a seesaw .The throttle pulls it back one way and the trans cable is pulled the other. If they are equal say 60mm travel for both the distance from the centre can be equal.
However if you throttle travels 60mm and your cable only 30mm you need a 2:1 ratio to keep the travel realtive to each other.
If you can't make you own linkage using that info you'd be best to buy a kit ( Pop Browns also supply) as it's going to work out far cheaper than another rebuild.;)
I understand that ratio bit Kev, but as it sits in the picture it is already pulled out too far. Which is why I suggested cutting the outer as the easiest approach. I have no idea how far it will pull when on full throttle, so that would be the next step in the modifications/testing.
A curved 'pulley' that turns with the throttle would make the cable pull more than a straight line pull would, but a bit fiddly to make yourself.
If Pop Brown does a kit, that's the obvious move really. A 'no brainer' as our colonial cousins would say.
Skimmer
23-12-08, 08:10 PM
Paul as it is in the pic isnt how i want it and by cutting the end off and recrimping it will only leave it as it is , it seems like its slipping whilst driving it set like this and also feels like its in 2nd gear.............Thats why im taking all this advice in , i did make a cam type setup but couldnt get it to return back to its idle position even using several different spring arrangments , but worked fine when i used my finger to return it .....
I see there is no more thread on your adjuster, so pull the crimped on end off of the cable outer, and carefully saw through the curly bit, then pull it off. Pop the crimped end back on and re-install. I guess you need about 1/2" or so removed. or you could modify the bracket a bit so the cable adjuster is further over?
Skimmer
23-12-08, 08:14 PM
I did make a cam type set up but just couldnt get it to return ......spent 3 or 4 hours just playing with the spring arrangements...........thats why i asked for advice here...
A little inventiveness in the bracket/lever department I think is required or, as I previously sugggested, go the Real Steel route.
It'll mean you have more inner cable poking out, so will be slack at idle, but as Kev says, it won't give you enough pull at full throttle.
Have you thought about rigging it at the other end of the operation, at the throttle pedal end? That is how I did my Morris kick down cable. The cable was too short to reach the carb properly, so I simply ran it back through the firewall to the throttle pedal. More room there to mes about fabbing extensions and stuff. No reason it has to be done at the carb end.
I had to use two springs on my Weber, and another one on the foot pedal, to get it to snick back to idle properly each time. That was before I fitted the kick down cable too.
Paul as it is in the pic isnt how i want it and by cutting the end off and recrimping it will only leave it as it is , it seems like its slipping whilst driving it set like this and also feels like its in 2nd gear.............Thats why im taking all this advice in , i did make a cam type setup but couldnt get it to return back to its idle position even using several different spring arrangments , but worked fine when i used my finger to return it .....
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