Banded Steels

[ian.stewart]

Bit of a repost here, on the old forum there was a thread on banded steels, and if I remember correctly there was a post with a reply from VOSA regarding their legality, would it be possible to see the post again,
Many thanks
Ian

[kevfromwales]

it's over on retro-rides if you want to see the vosa line on it
- kev

[poprodder]

i posted it on here, yes stolen from retro rides.

as taken from retro rides.

"Some of you may recall that, in the midst of a banded wheels thread, I e-mailed VOSA for their view on the practice. The question I asked was:

I have a query about a specialist modification to steel car wheels over which there is much debate about legality.

The modification involves cutting off the outer part of the steel wheel rim, welding a band of additional steel to the wheel, then welding the outer rim back onto the band which has been inserted. The aim of the modification is to allow the wheel to accept a much wider tyre for increased grip. The welding is usually carried out by qualified welders.

Can you confirm whether there is anything within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, or any other legislation, which prohibits the use of wheels which have been modified in this way?


They have now responded as follows:

Dear Mr Hilton

There are no specific regulations in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, as amended (C&U) relating to the type of work you propose.
Regulation 100 of C&U does require that all parts fitted to a vehicle are not likely to cause a danger to the user of the vehicle or other road users. I have attached a copy of Regulation 100.
Additionally, you will need to ensure that the wheels do not protrude from the wheel arches, or that modifications are made to the bodywork of the vehicle to ensure that the wheels do not protrude.

Yours sincerely

name removed
DfT - Transport Technology and Standards"

[ian.stewart]

thanks chaps.

[langysrodshop]

Now that's interesting !!!

[plumpcars]

That is interesting Steve because I and a few others on here clearly remember them being banned back in the early seventies. There were magazine announcements and the companies selling them stopped straight away.
So does this mean that it was a bullsh*t announcement designed to frighten people away from them rather than a genuine law change? If so, did the magazines in question know? I seem to remember that the reason for banning them was given as a few failures of wheels modded to a poor standard. The quality of the wheels modded by the reputable sellers was not brought into question but they were banned as well in the overall 'net'.

[langysrodshop]

I was thinking the very same Steve, All i can remember was that they were banned, Motor Wheel service in Jeddo rd stopped doing them and they were the best at doing them.

[kapri]

Like you both I remember them being banned but teh above post says that VOSA don't care. Don't know about you guys but I remember Cloverleaf insurance always asked " are your wheels banded ? ".

[40Stude]

Yep, I too remember the blanket ban and the steels 'strengthened' with steel plate 'five spokes' over a certain width, not to mention Dunlop racing wets! Back in the day there were reliable suppliers of banded rims, as Langy has pointed out, but there were a lot more dodgy ones. I can't see the situation being much different today.

I'd say the trump card will be "regulation 100 of C&U", without seeing the full wording of said regulation, I would still be wary of who would determine what would be "likely to cause a danger to the user of the vehicle or other road users" and how that decision would be arrived at. Sceptical? Me? Never.

[Paul B]

Yep, I too remember the blanket ban and the steels 'strengthened' with steel plate 'five spokes' over a certain width, not to mention Dunlop racing wets! Back in the day there were reliable suppliers of banded rims, as Langy has pointed out, but there were a lot more dodgy ones. I can't see the situation being much different today.

I'd say the trump card will be "regulation 100 of C&U", without seeing the full wording of said regulation, I would still be wary of who would determine what would be "likely to cause a danger to the user of the vehicle or other road users" and how that decision would be arrived at. Sceptical? Me? Never.
A month or so back, when I posted a thread on this on the old forum, giving the name of a dealer who advertised banding wheels, somebody answered giving an explanation that a car magazine had originally started the rumour that banded wheels were illegal, when in fact there was never any legal precedent set about them being banned.

[40Stude]

Paul, this subject has rumbled on for donkey's years and will no doubt continue well into the future. The fact is that back in the early 70's I guess, it WAS widely reported that banded wheels were illegal, Langy, Plump, Kapri, Brizey (I know he hasn't posted on this thread but has in the past) and I, along with countless others no doubt, remember it distinctly and bone fide companies didn't stop supplying what was a good earner at the time for no good reason. From the correspondance, C&U amended regs of '86 are mentioned, so maybe it got lost in the translation, I really don't know. Whatever the case back then the situation was serious enough for action to be taken and I for one can't subscribe to the rumour theory, my cousin got rid of a bubble arched 105E with banded steels because upgrading to alloys was too rich for him. I'm not casting doubt on the validity of the reply from Vosa, the current situation has obviously changed.

[plumpcars]

I remember that the magazine coverage was extensive and the companies all stopped selling overnight. What were fairly common adverts in the magazines just disappeared. When I eventually clear the loft before moving next year I'll keep an eye open for any old mags. Would be interesting to find the press coverage.
Cloverleaf insurance? That brings back a few memories!

[Brizey]

I remember some of the initial reports being in Hot Car mag` and Car & Car Conversions (among others) about the banning of banded steel wheels.
As has been said, the sales and advertisements of banded wheels disappeared overnight, also, i don't think the magazines started the rumours Paul, they were merely reporting on information and facts received from the authorities at the time...

[kc]

Bit of a repost here, on the old forum there was a thread on banded steels, and if I remember correctly there was a post with a reply from VOSA regarding their legality, would it be possible to see the post again,
Many thanks
Ian whats the story ian, do you have a bit of a plan coming together, big steel wheel time for the cortina ?

kev

[redoxide]

why would you put inferior banded steels on a car your gonna spend your hard earned on.. A set of decent steels in any stud patern and size you need is available from a reputable USA manufacturer.. and at only about £50 a wheel cheep reliable and ballanceable.. if you feel the need to consider banding, your nuts.. consider this, to do it properly would require loads of tools and equiptment, and not to mention welding skills, measuring gear and a ballancer at the very least and for anyone to do it and spend the labour setting up and truing at UK rates would probably be more than a £100 a wheel...

run a mile jump a style or eat a country pankace?

[Paul B]

why would you put inferior banded steels on a car your gonna spend your hard earned on.. A set of decent steels in any stud patern and size you need is available from a reputable USA manufacturer.. and at only about £50 a wheel cheep reliable and ballanceable.. if you feel the need to consider banding, your nuts.. consider this, to do it properly would require loads of tools and equiptment, and not to mention welding skills, measuring gear and a ballancer at the very least and for anyone to do it and spend the labour setting up and truing at UK rates would probably be more than a £100 a wheel...

run a mile jump a style or eat a country pankace?
Red, I'm pretty sure the shop I saw advertising on the web that banded steelies was charging a good handful of money for doing 'em. Like you say, real, properly made steel wheels don't exactly cost a fortune....

[Volkenstein]

Red, I'm pretty sure the shop I saw advertising on the web that banded steelies was charging a good handful of money for doing 'em. Like you say, real, properly made steel wheels don't exactly cost a fortune....

cha-ching!

www.wide-wheels.co.uk

Ry

[WB54]

I don't see a whole lot wrong with it, if it's done properly by a qualified engineer and certified welder, decent grade of material, with an acceptable level of run out, properly balanced and with full weld pentration.

Problem is, people cashed in on it as an alternative to expensive alloys. Anyone with a welder and torch decided to have a go and it was given a bad rap because of isolated incidents of failure. In this day and age it's just more viable and structually sound to buy a proper alloy.

It's easy for people to jump on the bangwagon about stuff like this, but equally theres loads of iffy subjects where you could take the moral hightgound, Running cross ply tires, 70 year old wire wheels, cars lower than the scrub line, locked diffs, spools, generally crap suspension or steering design and geometry, grade of bolts use on suspension, braking or prop, suicide doors anyone ?

Underlying point I think is, use common sense, the "proper" thing to do in this day and age is generally not much dearer than going round the houses and taking the known risks.

[4x4100E]

I've banded my own steels before its not that difficult to do. I'm putting some tyres on a set of widewheels.co.uk banded steels for a mate at the moment and i'm not that impressed with the welding tbh. On mine I set the wheel up on lathe and my mate span it slowly so I could do 1 continuous weld all the way round. On the widehweels versions i've got the weld is done in 4" runs.

I really want to put the 5 spoke bracing on the ones i've done like they used to, but I fear some old copper might remember them and try and throw the book at me.

Matt

[40Stude]

Matt, just out of interest since you have a sample of the rims, is the spec as they describe on the website? Obviously you've told us that the continuous bead is not as described but I was surprised to see them quoting the use of minimum 3mm stock for the band. Without measuring or checking, that seemed to be overly thick compared to the gauge of steel used in the original rim. I'm no expert on steel rims but I do remember the spec for roll cages used to be inch and five eighths 10swg, which translates to 3mm in new money and I can't believe an oem steel wheel is that thick! Of course I could be wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[rem]

I would have thought it would be better to weld in opposing sections rather than all the way round in one hit, as the metal would tend to pull as you go round.

I seem to remember that they were banned 'back in the day', but maybe they were just made unsaleable - if the insurance companies said "we're not going to cover any losses where they're fitted", then they would be effectively banned.

[digger]

A few years ago [10 !!] I made up a pair of wheels for a project, started with 14" weller 8 spokes and had the centers gassed out then fitted four stud ford centers which came from 13" wheels so as to keep the caps, I used some steel the right thickness to make up the differenc in diameter [not sure what as memory has faded] and welded them into the rims with the correct backspce so as to fit under a 100e with not arch mods.
I was pleased with the mimnimal runout and when checked for balancing they were as good as the factory rims before I started. the only real cost was time and a few grinding discs!

I'm not sure I would want to banb a rim but this would be another way to get a wider rim on a center that you want...

as far as I know they are still on the car!

[WB54]

Note at the bottom of the website quotes


"
After careful consideration our wheels will be sent away and tested so that they are given a BS mark and are suitable for road and race applications.

This means that every set of wheels will come with a certificate to show that they are fully road legal!! "



This to me , sounds misleading. How can you obtain a BS kitemark for modifying an existing OEM design which is already trademarked and the interlectual property of the OEM ?. You can't obtain, BS, CE or ISO approval for a product you don't either have a patent on or own the IPR to. I'd be interested to see this BS certificate ?, obviously they went through the process of application, destruction testing, full audit etc....

[kapri]

May only be BS 6*** or whatever the number is, which merely shows an audit of procedures and traceability not a safety standard ?

[Paul B]

This to me , sounds misleading. How can you obtain a BS kitemark for modifying an existing OEM design which is already trademarked and the interlectual property of the OEM ?. You can't obtain, BS, CE or ISO approval for a product you don't either have a patent on or own the IPR to. I'd be interested to see this BS certificate ?, obviously they went through the process of application, destruction testing, full audit etc....
Maybe it is just a load of 'BS' ? ;)

[J1MMY]

Matt, just out of interest since you have a sample of the rims, is the spec as they describe on the website? Obviously you've told us that the continuous bead is not as described but I was surprised to see them quoting the use of minimum 3mm stock for the band. Without measuring or checking, that seemed to be overly thick compared to the gauge of steel used in the original rim. I'm no expert on steel rims but I do remember the spec for roll cages used to be inch and five eighths 10swg, which translates to 3mm in new money and I can't believe an oem steel wheel is that thick! Of course I could be wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.


May only be BS 6*** or whatever the number is, which merely shows an audit of procedures and traceability not a safety standard ?


Maybe it is just a load of 'BS' ? ;)

There was much debate about this firm on a couple of other forums (vw ones mainly as wide steels became the rims to have) and someone posted up about a set of wheels they'd had done and came back very shonky indeed - and the wheels that were recieved by the customer were possibly not even the wheels that were sent by the customer to be banded.

There was much arguing and on one particular forum the proprieter was banned after getting the hump and having a bit of a rant over so many people jumping on them over the poor quality overall. They are still very popular with the VW scenesters and have apparently ironed out any quality control problems by changing whoever it is that actually does their hands on work for them but a lot of people were put off and JamesP on retrorides recieved a lot of PM's I bet.

Only found this thread by using the search function as I'm toying with buying some 16" steels and getting them banded, wanted to see who (if anyone at all) is recommended by you older more knowledgeable sorts.;)

[Morris460]

We did a lot of these where I did my apprenticeship (all for our own use), they are easy to do. We had lathe fixtures for splitting the rims and a rotary welding jig. All done in dinner times and after work. I never heard of a failure and one guy even raced a Lotus Seven in a racing series with them! The rim extensions were done in 16 swg using a method devised there. OK so we were a sheetmetal/fabrication company but it was really simple to do. Don't see a problem with them myself.

[blobby]

I'll see if i can find the mag that i read recently,i think it was fast ford,where they actually promoted a company that actually made banded wheels,the mag said that they would use your existing wheels to band therefore retaining the look of a standerd wheel only wider.

[J1MMY]

I'll see if i can find the mag that i read recently,i think it was fast ford,where they actually promoted a company that actually made banded wheels,the mag said that they would use your existing wheels to band therefore retaining the look of a standerd wheel only wider.

Any luck finding this?:)

[nigelh]

Think it was practical classics. Will try to dig it out later

[farncombe pop]

http://www.wide-wheels.co.uk/Widewheels.html

[Volkenstein]

http://www.wide-wheels.co.uk/Widewheels.html

LOL! I posted that site on this very thread a year ago to the day, and now you posted it. Cue the outer limits them tune.

:D

Ry

http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showpost.php?p=14866&postcount=17

[farncombe pop]

LOL! I posted that site on this very thread a year ago to the day, and now you posted it. Cue the outer limits them tune.

:D

Ry

http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showpost.php?p=14866&postcount=17
Spooky LOL.

[J1MMY]

Not remotely interested in dealing with them - would rather spend the same money on some expensive and straight steels from Northhants tyres. hence asking if there was anywhere else.

Thanks for putting that up anyways:)