View Full Version : DVLA rules update from ACE
Posted for Kapri as he's kinda busy answering questions on other forums...
I said awhile back that the ACE were liaising to clarify some of the rules of the 8 points system. We've got to the bottom of what is and isn't allowed on the modified chassis / monococque .
http://www.the-ace.org.uk/Chassis-and-Monocoque-Modification.html
Subscribers to the ACE list will be getting a newsletter shortly
http://www.the-ace.org.uk/subscribe-to-the-ace-newsletter.html
Please spread the information to any other forums you visit and get then to subscribe as we will be working to clarify other sections.It's a slow job with it taking the best part of 6 months liason to get this first section completed.
weemark
07-02-10, 11:10 PM
thats quite helpful.
thats quite helpful.
Indeed! :D
yeah that is interesting... kit cars, glass bodied hot rod replicas, beach buggies, cobra replicas etc are all pretty much destined to end up Q's then? although i guess cars that have already been registered will be ok. does this mean they are tightening up on an existing law or just restating it so people are aware?
yeah that is interesting... kit cars, glass bodied hot rod replicas, beach buggies, cobra replicas etc are all pretty much destined to end up Q's then? although i guess cars that have already been registered will be ok. does this mean they are tightening up on an existing law or just restating it so people are aware?
Nope, none of those have to be Q regs. If you do your homework before the build then all can be registered with an age related plate. Only cars using a modified monococque ,or unable to prove the source of 2 major components of the build end up with a Q .
The regs relating to how a cars identity is formulated have remained unchanged for at least 27 years. However when you finally manage to find the information you are supposed to comply with you discover it is only guidelines. Often you find that 'your' interpreatation of the guidelines varies greatly from DVLAs resuting in difficult suituations .
The latest work by ACE has been to clarify what is the root of cars identity under the 8 points system under which you must have a mandatory 5 points from " original unmodified chassis or monococque". The chassis clarification gives lot more leeway of a trad car using an original chassis than first thought.:)
Unfortunately that is not the case on monococque cars. :(
So your saying if the donor car was monococque originally it's more likely to cause problems than if it was a seperate chassis car even if the chassis is not the original chassis?
Not if the donor car was monococque it's if the modfied car IS a monococque :)
Check out the ACE link and look at the 8 points system that DVLA operate . A declared new chassis,other thanf rom OEM or their dealer, would lose the vehicles identity. You should stick with the original chassis and the clarification means you CAN actually modify it to make it stronger ,something that was previously believed to be a no go under the guidelines on the DVLA site.
If I can explain a bit more DVLA identify a vehicle by giving points to certain components . When the vehicle can no longer make up those numbers it is considered to not be what it claims to be and if found out would have it's right to registration removed and sent for SVA /BIVA test.
However you can modify a car and still retain its original number and historic status IF you modify with the 8 points rule.
In those 8 points you MUST have the 5 points related to "original unmodified chassis / monococque ".
Clarity at last!...well done Kev and thanks to all at ACE.
Real 39
08-02-10, 09:27 AM
Not had chance to read through it all yet but well done to all invoved with this. It must seem like a thankless task at times but there are people out here interested in this topic.
Captain Scarlet
08-02-10, 11:41 AM
Good news on the chassis,as they can be boxed,but unfortunately as soon as you move one of the x members you loose the 5 points,as you say Kev good for trad style cars with an original chassis,but supply of these original chassis is limited, i guess VOSA and DVLA would not approve a reproduction chassis,as they require OEM components ?.
Most British cars with a separate chassis do not compete so well against US models, as the running gear on the British cars tend to be too weak,resulting in more components needing to be changed,and as a result,more likely to need an x member moving or replacing.
But as has been said its a bit of light out of the gloom ,well done Kev and everyone else involved,hope you can get a bit more luck on the components clarification.:)
Do you intend to try and get them to clarify a date of introduction for the 8 points system ,based on the fact that information was a bit thin on the ground back in the early days,and cars were being modified without knowledge of the rules,this would obviously lead on to questions like 'are early modified cars exempt now ' and 'are such cars exempt from further modification'.
I remember we talked of a hopeful possibility of a 'pre 98 modified exemption ' i think it was,but if that was a possibility ,DVLA would need conclusive proof.
I accept that it may be far too early, asking this question Kev,so i am sorry for being so impatient :)
hotroddickie
08-02-10, 01:54 PM
Will the vendors at the swap meet be giving out official receipts so the components used can be proven to the DVLA if challenged? I have already heard of someone who has come unstuck after fitting a swap meet motor, informing the DVLA of the change then the DVLA wanted a receipt to confirm what the motor was, for the engine change. When this was questioned on the phone he was told that its not legal to break a car for an engine you have to be a registered breaker so he should have a receipt from a proper company, case closed.
It is great that all this legislation is finally bieng understood.
Interesting to see if they have plans to implement it retrospectivley ie all the 100's of rods on the road for years built from new components but running age related plates. Checked during MOT's? A So-Cal, Brookville crate motor rod or even an original body,TCI chassis, swap meet engine car could then only be a new car not a replica of a 29/32 in the DVLA's eyes.
This would be a nightmare for many/most of us.
Rich
Morris460
08-02-10, 02:31 PM
That sounds like someone at DVLA got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Taking an engine out to use elsewhere-illegal? Just can't see that one.
That's a new one on me as well Paul ?
We have already had some success with pre '98 built cars and can give advice to anyone who needs it by PM here or contacting all the guys at ACE through the website.
We have irons in the fire re various important pieces but they all have to slot together at the right time so unable to go into great detail here . Suffice it to say that ACE is doing its best to protect the future , and past of , of all modified vehicles out there.
Richard, if that case is still ongoing ACE would be happy to try to help ? I'd be happy to answer your other queries on the phone :)
Morris460
08-02-10, 03:31 PM
Right, after a lot of searching it turns out that yet again DVLA do not know their own rules. The Lib dems are currently protesting that the DVLA allow a loophole that lets you scrap your own car using the "tick" box on the V5, thus avoiding approved disposal. So it's the DVLA that allow you to use an engine NOT sourced from a registered breaker. Why am I not surprised.
Saved us a job then Paul :D
Of course the Lib Dems want to stop 'home' scrappage , we should all be riding round in Eurobox size A like good citizens, after all we all have a spare £5000 to buy a new car every 3 years (plus servicing) don't we ?:rolleyes: Why woud you possibly want to remove an engine from £50 banger to keep your £500 'banger' going when there are such good deals on scrappage to be had ? Sorry, going off subject and just ranting now :o:mad:
so can i cut off the "out riggers" on my scimitar chassis,and effectively narrow the overall width to suit an earlier body style,and replace with a sub rail,but not altering the original chassis? :confused:
pompeypaul
09-02-10, 06:33 AM
hopefully toetag, i need to bring my outriggers in a bit (but they will still be there) or is it allowed to cut them off and use box section to replace them ?
The outriggers on a Scimitar are just that .However if you look at a similar chassis of the Herald the rearmost piece ( on outrigger ) has a suspension mount on it so it is NOT allowable on that to change /remove the outrigger.
Remember here you would be dealing with a DVLA inspection, then on to a V765 owners club report /and or VOSA involvement to finalise the decision IF DVLA were not happy with what they see. I would alter the minimum amount neccesary and 'sympathetically'.
sharonandmatt
09-02-10, 03:40 PM
sounds like a nightmare and the cost of engines etc rocketing up if we can only get them from licencesed breakers, so i can get my head round it at the mo the guys in custom car are making a hot rod and latered the rear end of the original i presume this would then mean this car would have to be on a q plate? and i am right in presuming that a q plate car with a large v8 engine will get slapped on road tax?
This makes it easier for many folk then:
Q) Is it acceptable to strengthen a chassis by the addition of boxing plates a process that involves turning a 3-sided open chassis rail into a fully enclosed 'box' chassis?
A) Yes, providing the original structure remains unchanged.
:D
I`ve read through the above links and it seems some good and encouraging headway`s being made there.
Kev, in relation to what Paul quoted below ....
This makes it easier for many folk then:
Q) Is it acceptable to strengthen a chassis by the addition of boxing plates a process that involves turning a 3-sided open chassis rail into a fully enclosed 'box' chassis?
A) Yes, providing the original structure remains unchanged.
.... I thought (maybe wrongly) that it was not allowed to even drill extra holes in a frame to retain it`s `points system` identity (for say, exhaust hanger brackets, hyd. brake line clamps etc) , or even weld on extra brackets.
Does this mean that brackets such as the weld-on style of front shock mount brackets are OK to use (the original frame (structure) is still unchanged from stock).
I would also assume that if the above ex. brackets/brake line clamps etc need to be fitted, you could box or localise box the frame and then drill/weld onto the boxing because you are not compromising the original structure, only what you have (legally) added onto it ?...
We haven't clarified the drilling etc but from the replies we have ( which took a period of 6 months ) it appears it would be acceptable I can clarify when I next speak with them. The fact that we are allowed to weld in additional members is good and shows that welding woudl be acceptable, easy way would be to drill into teh new members ;) :)
There is no way we can tie them down to more specifics than that as there can be so many things outside the rules that don't work etc. That's why they leave in the 'each vehicle is considered on its own merits' . Bit like vehicles in the spirit of hotrodding :rolleyes::D
I can honestly say that VOSA do not want to stop or doing what we do , nor do DVLA, but theer are regs that we are supposed to comply with. getting a better understanding of those regs can only help surely ? I feel that the latest clarification has been most helpful for certain sector sof our hobby.
I would also assume that if the above ex. brackets/brake line clamps etc need to be fitted, you could box or localise box the frame and then drill/weld onto the boxing because you are not compromising the original structure, only what you have (legally) added onto it ?... That is exactly how I would view it and deal with the situation Brian.
The quotes on the ACE site are from both DVLA and VOSA Press Offices and were vetted as they were aware they were for mass audience viewing.
Captain Scarlet
09-02-10, 05:55 PM
It would seem quite strict if you were not allowed to drill a chassis,for example, a standard vehicle having a tow bar fitted would loose its 5 points ,if i have worked that out correctly.
paul246
09-02-10, 06:19 PM
hi i read this thread with intrest,if you have a car that does not have its 8 points, ie modified bulkhead, and tunnel, etc, if you dont inform DVLA about the changes how are they to know?will it be picked up at the MOT
I've cut and pasted from an answer I gave elsewhere
"I have spoken with many who have lost their logbooks , including Andy Saunders with his chopped Bentley ( modified monococque) . It has been a variety of sources, from letters from DVLA ,out of the blue, asking to inspect the vehicle due to discrepancies ,people being reported by others, roadside stops by Police, roadside stops by VOSA ( who you may notice are everywhere more and more) , by inspection during number plate transfers , over zealous MOT testers and by changes notified to DVLA especially on body change .
There is even the possibility of it coming to light due to running illegal number plates.See here :-
http://www.the-ace.org.uk/dvla-get-t...s-display.html (http://www.the-ace.org.uk/dvla-get-tougher-on-non-conforming-number-plates-display.html) "
As always I qualify by saying you all have freedom of choice on what you wish to do ,just do it from an informed point of view .
It would seem quite strict if you were not allowed to drill a chassis,for example, a standard vehicle having a tow bar fitted would loose its 5 points ,if i have worked that out correctly.
Hence why we needed to get a better understanding ;)
neilswheels
10-02-10, 09:49 PM
very interesting, more wriggle room than I originally thought. Thanks Kev and the rest of the ACE team for keeping at this.
1960Zody
11-02-10, 08:52 AM
very interesting, more wriggle room than I originally thought. Thanks Kev and the rest of the ACE team for keeping at this.
Yep, Kev's doing a sterling job with VOSA/DVLA.
What it is proving is that taking a 'Constructive' approach and discussing things rather than just saying "I'm building what I want and thay'll have to cath me first" brings improvements to the regs.
Part of what we're seeing is that DVLA have never had to really think about what the rules mean in the past, they have just said "Unmodified" chassis, without realy knowing what entailed a modification.
It's a slow process, but it is moving...
Brizey, drilling into rails fine providing you are not boring large holes that would affect chassis strength , confirmed today.
Thanks for the verification Kev. The frame boxing and `hole` verification certainly help in `our` direction :cool:...
Magseller
12-02-10, 05:02 PM
I don't know if Kev/ACE are having a stand at the SuperNats but
if they are, it would be encouraging / enlightening / educational
if owners of cars that have passed the tests, could be persuaded
to assemble in front of the stand, each one displaying a board
outlining any problems / solutions needed and overcome to get them
officially roadworthy.
It would also be very visible evidence of the work that Kev and Co.,
have put in, on our behalf and might encourage more people to support ACE.
I've yet to speak with SSR but ACE had a stand at Wheelsday last year and we are planning to this year. We are hoping to have vehicles suitable to show what can be achieved within the rules if everything is restested etc in time.
Magseller
12-02-10, 07:44 PM
yes, I remember your stand last time.
Just thought this might be a way to enhance your presence, influence and effect.
If there are detailed display boards for people to browse, they could 'answer'
a number of questions you might otherwise be asked and therefore ease
the pressure on you, a little.
For a small fee perhaps, people could take away with them,
sheets on which the appropriate 'mods' relating to at least
some of the cars on display, were detailed.
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