Front Grill Shell Question???

[dustyrustee]

In 1948 when the anglias and thames vans were first exported to North America, for the 1948 model year and only for the 1948 model year these cars and small 1/4 tonne vans featured a 3 slot grill as standard equipment.

1949 and later EXPORT models had only the 2 slot grill.

So: here are my questions:

1) Did any of the UK cars/vans (DOMESTIC MODELS) have 3 slot grills and if so what models and what years?


2) Did any UK fordsons have 3 slot grills? if so when?


3) was the single opening grill used on any other vehicles other than the early fordson vans and the 1938 ford model 8 cars? (or were the single opening grills used from 1934 to 1938?)....where were single opening grills used exactly?

if any one can tell me about the various grill variations, I would be very curious to know about this bit of history.

OH..... FINAL question: did the forson vans have a fordson logo on the grill spoon (badge)???

On van models imported here (to n.america) from 1948 on, the badge read "Thames".

Did the UK small vans have a Thames badge as well?


Thanks....Ian

[40Stude]

Ian Armstrong, aka 'Captain Scarlet' will probably know most of this but from my recollection, the three slot grille was used on pre war cars too but I'm not sure which variants.

I don't believe any panels used a three slot grille for the home market.

I've seen UK panels with both Fordson and Thames badges in the grille spoon.

I'm sure there are general guidelines for what was used when, like I said, Ian or perhaps Rich Gray, are more clued up on this than me. One thing's for sure, Ford did certainly mix and match stuff from time to time, fenders with and without edge beading and A posts with either a fixed pressed vent or an opening one to name but two.

Ever looked at the headlamp surrounds on 100E/300E's? I have three pairs for my van. The ones it came with, it's an early 'big bumper' 7cwt, which are smooth pressings, a swap meet pair with the polished ribbed insert between the headlight and sidelight and a third pair with a ribbed pressing in the surround itself. The interesting thing is that the ones with the polished insert, if you look at the back, one is a smooth surround and the other ribbed!

[crumble]

7w ten 1937-1938 3 hole grill.
7y eight 1937-1939 1 hole grill
e04a 1939-1948 flat front
e494a anglia 1948-1953 2 hole
103e pop 1953-1959 2 hole
fordson 1946-1948 7y eight grill 1 hole
fordson 1948-1959 2 hole grill.

this should help.

[Captain Scarlet]

As John says above,the 3 hole grill originated here on the ford ten 7W in 37,and went on to fitted to some export models in 48.
there are in fact 3 different ways the trim & grill bars are assembled on the 3 hole grill, that i have seen, MK1,MK2,and export.all looking very similar.

Although the commercial range collectively known as Thames here,the spoon badge had the Ford script,or the Fordson logo,with Thames on export,although it is not unknown for Thames badges to be fitted here.btw the spoon that holds the badge is shorter on the 1&3 hole grills.
Ian

[Captain Scarlet]

Ian a related link you may find interesting http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showthread.php?t=2817&highlight=ford+7w

Ian:)

[40Stude]

Ian, I've definately seen a stock van over here with a Thames badge too. It was over twenty years ago when I was helping Reg Chatwin out. A service garage on the same industrial estate were doing some brake work on a running, ticketed van and that had the Thames badge on it. I remember thinking it odd at the time. I know the badge could have been swapped but it would have been unlikely on a stocker, which at the time had lots of what we now call 'patina'.

[Captain Scarlet]

yea i have seen em too Al i had just edited my post 2mins before you posted,as you said above sometimes Ford were a law unto themselves,and quite rightly too,who are we to question Henery LOL,or was it just poor quality control LOL
Ian :)

[crumble]

the thames vans here might have been export models that never went. if i remember correctly the export model had a water pump and 16" wheels.

[chris]

there are in fact 3 different ways the trim & grill bars are assembled on the 3 hole grill, that i have seen, MK1,MK2,and export.all looking very similar.

Ian



Ian,
Have you any pics of the above or can you explain the diffences in writing?
im thinkin of making up some trims for my 3 hole.

cheers,
Chris

[Captain Scarlet]

Ian,
Have you any pics of the above or can you explain the diffences in writing?
im thinkin of making up some trims for my 3 hole.

cheers,
Chris

The MK 1 had stainless "V" bars with wire soldered to the back to hold them to the shell,then each hole had a trim that fitted the edge,so 6 components+ the shell.

The MK2 had pressed one piece chrome inserts that provided the v bars and the edge of the hole trim, so 3 components + the shell.

The export shell had the hole trims fitted to the edge,and for the vertical bars a one piece panel (looking very much like a grill section cut from the one hole grill)was fitted to the rear of the apertures,so 4 components +the shell.
You can see a pattern here of cutting down on the cost of production.

An interesting anecdote i once read ,is that after WW2 it was commonplace for people who owned the older 7Y&7W's to request a garage to update their older car by fitting the then more modern two hole grill !!!
Yea imagine stumbling across an old garage that used to do that and they kept all the old grills !!!
Ian

[chris]

An interesting anecdote i once read ,is that after WW2 it was commonplace for people who owned the older 7Y&7W's to request a garage to update their older car by fitting the then more modern two hole grill !!!
Yea imagine stumbling across an old garage that used to do that and they kept all the old grills !!!
Ian


Heaven for us 3 hole addicts! lol

thanks for the info ;)

[dustyrustee]

Hi everyone.....rather than approach each reply to my question individually with a token of appreciation, I thought it best that I do it in one go:

SO many thanks to all that took the time and contributed. I had a feeling that expert replies would evolve....and so they did.

regards, Ian

[kapri]

The MK 1 had stainless "V" bars with wire soldered to the back to hold them to the shell,then each hole had a trim that fitted the edge,so 6 components+ the shell.

The MK2 had pressed one piece chrome inserts that provided the v bars and the edge of the hole trim, so 3 components + the shell.

The export shell had the hole trims fitted to the edge,and for the vertical bars a one piece panel (looking very much like a grill section cut from the one hole grill)was fitted to the rear of the apertures,so 4 components +the shell.
You can see a pattern here of cutting down on the cost of production.

An interesting anecdote i once read ,is that after WW2 it was commonplace for people who owned the older 7Y&7W's to request a garage to update their older car by fitting the then more modern two hole grill !!!
Yea imagine stumbling across an old garage that used to do that and they kept all the old grills !!!
Ian

Steve Goodridge had a set of each in his parts stash !

[hershambob]

The MK 1 had stainless "V" bars with wire soldered to the back to hold them to the shell,then each hole had a trim that fitted the edge,so 6 components+ the shell.

The MK2 had pressed one piece chrome inserts that provided the v bars and the edge of the hole trim, so 3 components + the shell.

The export shell had the hole trims fitted to the edge,and for the vertical bars a one piece panel (looking very much like a grill section cut from the one hole grill)was fitted to the rear of the apertures,so 4 components +the shell.
You can see a pattern here of cutting down on the cost of production.

An interesting anecdote i once read ,is that after WW2 it was commonplace for people who owned the older 7Y&7W's to request a garage to update their older car by fitting the then more modern two hole grill !!!
Yea imagine stumbling across an old garage that used to do that and they kept all the old grills !!!
Ian

all the 3 hole grills i have seen stateside have had the pressed i hole style grill behind,,
i also remember reading in a mag (sm or cc)somewere that the yank bonnets didnt fit the english grill shells(grey and red pop springs to mind)strange as they were all made here,,bob

[Captain Scarlet]

all the 3 hole grills i have seen stateside have had the pressed i hole style grill behind,,
i also remember reading in a mag (sm or cc)somewere that the yank bonnets didnt fit the english grill shells(grey and red pop springs to mind)strange as they were all made here,,bob
Hi Bob thanks for the conformation on the one hole panel used behind the export grill, that's what i have found out only in the last two years or so,i thought i had it nailed down to just the two types which is strange enough in itself for a short production run between 37/38.i do have photo's but they need scanning,i will sort them out
Re the grill that the late Tony Robinson collected from the usa,Tony told me of this problem with the bonnets not fitting the grill,however there is only one size and anyone having problems would probably find that they have damaged panels.Tony told me that when he went to the states to get the grill it had been involved in a front end smash and it had to undergo intensive repair when he returned,this damage could have spread out the top part of the grill shell.Also press tools are expensive,it is highly unlikely that Ford would tool up for two three hole grills,bonnets to suit and also the front wings would not line up,unless different flitch panels were made.
Thanks Bob
Ian:)

[jim rutter]

so that's why i have a short spoon in my collection
jim

[kapri]

Ian, Steves collection also had two different types of one hole grille.I remember one had the bars pressed into the shell itself.

[Captain Scarlet]

Ian, Steves collection also had two different types of one hole grille.I remember one had the bars pressed into the shell itself.

Well if the panel was removable on one of them Kev it explains the availability of back panel to be put to use on the export three hole,all the pieces of the puzzle are coming together.:)
Ian

[crumble]

ian the panel that kapri is talking i bought it from him. do you remember me showing you that removable panel at the northen swapmeet. you was saying then that it was not for a 3 hole grill. lol. dez was their and he said that he had the same insert fitted to his 3 hole.

[Captain Scarlet]

Yes i remember it well Johnyou really threw me that day , that's what got me interested in re visiting the history of these grills LOL
I still have found no evidence that the one piece panel was ever intended for the pre war UK 3 hole production,it quite possible that it was available after the war as a superseded replacement parts panel for the 7W, as they were being assembled that way for the export market,that would explain Dez having one or it was brought in from the US.
Thanks John (what a good memory you have LOL)
Ian:)

[JC.]

Is there a site that compares all these grilles next to each other?
How easily are they interchanged?

[hershambob]

jc,,very easily,

[hershambob]

http://www.angliaobsolete.com/threegrilles.jpeg

[hershambob]

http://www.angliaobsolete.com/

[chouse]

The 7Y and the Fordson single slot grills are different. The 7Y hole had trim round it and the "cheaper van" did not. They didn't have bumpers on the vans either hence no holes in the wings for the bumper irons. Not sure if that was just the early E04C though.

Did the badges ever change colour for different models? I know the Anglias all had red badges with Anglia script but what about the 7W etc?

[Enfo54]

Didn't the Anglias in the states have a red 1.17ltr spoon badge?

[JC.]

http://www.angliaobsolete.com/threegrilles.jpeg

Are these the same or are they different in subtle ways?
I'd just like to see what all the options are in terms of the front end if I were to do a V8 pop / Anglia as my next car is all...

Thanks for the links so far though!

[crumble]

jc your options on these grills are very slim. they are very thin on the ground and a good one would fetch £400-£500 if it got all its trim.
but you could go for a plastic one as an option and make some trim to fit.

[Captain Scarlet]

OK anorak time again ,but i thought some pics may be useful for reference,and while finding myself in front of both 7w grills with a digital camera and to save me scanning old pics here is some photo ID
First up the MK 1,1937 7w three hole.
note the separate outer trim and you can just see one of the four horizontal round wire braces holding the vertical trims together
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa202/ijarm/100_2382.jpg

Next the MK2 1937/1938 7w three hole
One piece trims with four obvious horizontal flat brace holding the vertical trims
Now this later MK2 grill trim appears to have been fitted to some export model Anglia's also.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa202/ijarm/100_2379.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa202/ijarm/100_2378.jpg
This last picture shows a an export Anglia with a combination of the MK1 outer trims and a one piece panel of vertical bars fitted behind the three hole aperture,note the single flat horizontal strip spacing the vertical bars ,now this grill may have been fitted to some english cars as a "accident replacement" panel.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa202/ijarm/Rod9.jpg
Hope i have clarified the history of the grill and got this all right and we can now all be three hole experts LOL
BTW,don't pay any attention to the grill on my green Pop coz its a mongrel of bits,and will only confuse you LOL
Ian;)

[40Stude]

BTW,don't pay any attention to the grill on my green Pop coz its a mongrel of bits,and will only confuse you LOL
Ian;)


Shares some brightwork with your latest project, or is my memory playing up?

[Captain Scarlet]

Shares some brightwork with your latest project, or is my memory playing up?
Al,you memory is working fine,unfortunately. LOL

[dez58pop]

i had all the steve goodriges 3 hole trims i made a good set out of the lot ,i think i was the only person in the world with the most trims lol has ian said mine came from the states and had a rear bolt in insert witch looks like a ford 8 grill and it has chromed trims wot a pain in the ass there are to fit ,i also had a set of stainless type with the bars connected which i sold crumble sadly i have none left now i asked keith ardley to make a copy but he never got round to it ,ian i thought there was only me and you woth the export front lol must have been 6 pops now at drayton same has ours

[chris]

mine's had a 3 hole grill for maybe the same amount of time as Ian's!

check the first picture here > http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showthread.php?t=657


just wanted to make that clear,no band wagon jumping for me lol!

[dustyrustee]

mine's had a 3 hole grill for maybe the same amount of time as Ian's!

check the first picture here > http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showthread.php?t=657


just wanted to make that clear,no band wagon jumping for me lol!


glad you posted the link...always wondered how ansen sprints would look on a pop/thames.....

you ride looks great...Ian