There's gotta be a way to get the pedal ratio better than 4:1 (admittedly better than 3:1!). Not sure what tho! Saw something somewhere with a hydraulically operated remote master. Or bellcranks? Or look into hydroboost
Not sure we've seen pics of the offending brake setup.
Chris
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Bumper sticker - This is an historic vehicle and only has three speeds....... if you don't like this one you sure as hell won't like the others.
agreed, we need to see pics.
neil.
I ca think of lots of ways to get GOOD brakes even in the tightest of spaces . Not saying it will be easy to do but WILL work . Remembering of course that BIVA spec is higher than MOT as well . Reason being the BIVA is a Compliance test and MOT is maintenance.
Firstly wherein the country are you to see if its viable forme to come to you for a look?
Galations 6:7
I'm in Herts so a fair way a way I believe.Originally Posted by kapri
Pictures as requested.
The brake pedal is pivoted on the floor. The pivot basically has to be located here as its the only bit of floor with any clearance underneath.
Looking down in front of the firewall. Steering to the right. Car is RHD.
The main culprit is the angled chassis member going back under the firewall.
Looking up from below.
The black lever is 8mm steel welded onto the bottom of the floor pivot.
The bolt that holds the spherical joint is as high as it can go on the lever without rubbing on the chassis member above it.
When the pedal is in the upright position the lever just touches the angled chassis member and when pushed to the floor the lever stops just short of the square section chassis member.
This was how the car was originally built.
When the car arrived with me it had a Chevy style cast iron tandem master cylinder on a 7" single servo. Princess 4 pot calipers on the front and sierra calipers on the back.
You have to get older, but you don't have to grow up!!!
well that's an easy fix then. lower the pivot point while at the same time shortening the lower 'lever' and extending the upper 'lever'. you may need to add a short slot in the floor as the lever will travel forward slightly what with the pivot being below the floor now, no biggy. it'll actually be neater inside as all you'll have is a small slot in the carpet instead of the pivot exposed too. without changing the carpet the easiest way to neaten it up is to make a small panel with a slot in that covers the gap in the carpet, either stainless, ally or steel painted satin black.
neil.
Last edited by mygasser; 20-04-23 at 06:42 PM.
That would work. Will have to have a good look to see if a pivot of some sort would fit. Pivot at present is an 18mm steel tube. It would be incredibly tight.
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You have to get older, but you don't have to grow up!!!
Sorted! Also you'll need a 7/8" /15/16ths mc to achieve maximum line presure but will also need servo .If you can find room for a 6" servo a LandRover unit will provide all that and low level warning etc.
Depending on the finished pedal ratio ( aim for 4.o with servo and 6 without youhave to allow for pedal travel to floor ie 4:1 shoud give 40-50 mm to brake lock out and 6:1 will give 60-72mm. If the pedal at full travel is too near the floor they will LOOK like crap brakes but be fine. Otherway is to move the floor /bulkhead away from pedal ie towrads front of car .
If there's space you can also get a twin remote servo but they are around the £400 mark.
Galations 6:7
Kev, do tell more about this 6" Landrover servo. The generic 7" ones are ineffectual imo, possibly due to quality issues?
Chris
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Last edited by Happydaze; 21-04-23 at 10:11 AM.
Bumper sticker - This is an historic vehicle and only has three speeds....... if you don't like this one you sure as hell won't like the others.
The LandRover servo is a bulkhead mount with m/c than added to that, tyical OEM. Comes in one size with interchangeable masters of 22.2mm ( 7/8) or 25.4 ( 1") bores. Brakes have to be designed rather than what will fit and we ( rodders )create many issues for ourselves often by asking others " What have you used?" when final application is totally different .
I remember back in the 89/90s wheh Fiesta servos were the hot ticket and small and easy to fit . If you managed to bleed them lack of fluid capacity was merely storing up issues waiting to the problem to occur due to maintennance caused issues.
I'm always willing to help anyone design a safe system , especially important whehn going for BIVA .
Just come to me before you run into problems as much easier to fit with more space available . ie I cab design an entire boot mounted system if there is nowhere else but going with conventional set ups is far easier.
I wrote some articles in the past you'll remember about such stuff but I doubt I'd bother to update as seems so few builders about who want to understand how stuff works anymore.
Galations 6:7
Remote servo on my mates' Volvo transformed the brakes feel and efficacy.
When the science behind it all is understood ie line pressures , pedal pad pressure i, disc clamping pressure it is perfectly possible to make a servo less system with more line pressure than a servoed unit, a system often needed in a case of a blown motor or high cam lift low generated vacuum.
It is also very possible to bolt together a very expensice hotch potch of ineffcetive partsLOL
Galations 6:7
- kapri
Originally Posted by ross@rmrrestorations
Remote servo on my mates' Volvo transformed the brakes feel and efficacy.
When the science behind it all is understood ie line pressures , pedal pad pressure i, disc clamping pressure it is perfectly possible to make a servo less system with more line pressure than a servoed unit, a system often needed in a case of a blown motor or high cam lift low generated vacuum.
It is also very possible to bolt together a very expensice hotch potch of ineffcetive parts- Today, 01:09 PM
ross@rmrrestorations
Remote servo on my mates' Volvo transformed the brakes feel and efficacy.
Galations 6:7
The brakes were good.....what I would call progressive. Push harder to slow down faster(kinda like an early 911 feel). His driving was alot of stop start commuting and he was worried about someone cutting in and him not having time to react. The remote servo(no engine bay space) gave him the softer feel he wanted. Some people like that on/off feel........some don't.When the science behind it all is understood ie line pressures , pedal pad pressure i, disc clamping pressure it is perfectly possible to make a servo less system with more line pressure than a servoed unit, a system often needed in a case of a blown motor or high cam lift low generated vacuum.
It is also very possible to bolt together a very expensice hotch potch of ineffcetive parts
OK, some good news.
Car passed its MOT with flying colours (except the handbrake which only just passed the bar).
From all the above comments I've got a lot to go on now, when winter arrives and I'm back in the garage...
At the moment we have the pedal that has been discussed operating a pushrod back to a dual 7" inch servo mounted under the drives seat.
There is a Wilwood tandem alloy master (1" bore) attached to the servo.
The lines run through Wilwood Blue residual pressure valves front and back.
The front line has a line lock as well then on to the alloy 4 pot callipers.
The rear line goes through a Wilwood proportioning valve then on to the alloy rear callipers.
At the test I was allowed to adjust the valve to see what difference it made and it would appear It may as well be removed as it ended up fully open.
We have 80% efficiency front and back on the foot brake.
This should improve when I lower the pivot point below the floor.
The hand brake needed 16% efficiency to pass, it managed 17%!
More work required, but not just now, I want to use the car this summer...
You have to get older, but you don't have to grow up!!!
Pass and a plan, can't be bad
Quite right John.Pass and a plan, can't be bad
Cheers Tim W
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Has been a while since I posted anything.
The car has been out and about to a few local breakfast and evening meets.
Last Sunday went up to the A602's breakfast gathering and rather embarrassingly had to be towed into the car park.
The car had started up fine in the morning and again at Tescos for petrol.
Had to ask for directions, the chap couldn't hear me over the engine so I switched it off.
Went to restart and... a loud grinding noise and nothing.
Got out and pressed the start button again, starter was spinning over fine, engine wasn't turning.
The rescue party arrived and towed me into the venue. Had breakfast and a good chat with anyone who would talk to me.
Got back to the car and things had cooled down a bit, tried again.
Loud grinding but she just started up...phew!
Arrived back home, straight in the garage and starter out.
The dangers of a start button!
Looks like when I was having a problem starting the car I wasn't waiting for the engine to fully stop before pressing start again.
The pinion gear was being smashed into the moving ring gear and the pinion teeth have slowly broken off until what happened on Sunday was the last tooth!
Turns out the part required to fix it is not a stock item anywhere in the UK (its a BB Ford 460).
Parts are kept for Chevy's, Chryslers and SB Fords.
Topspeed have ordered me a replacement pinion clutch assembly, will be two to three weeks direct from MSD.
I did try the original starter motor back in the hole but its to big to fit the indent in the oil pan so wont line up.
Whilst I was at the front end also notice oil pooling everywhere.
Looks like a problem with excessive crankcase pressure pushing oil out the gaskets.
I have tried to make a simple PCV system to recirculate the fumes but it looks like the lack of vacuum from a tunnel ram is causing not not to work.
Looks like I'm going back to twin open breathers on the valve covers.
I'm hoping to be back on the road for the Nats in August but anything else is not happening
Last edited by fabphil; 06-07-23 at 04:51 PM.
You have to get older, but you don't have to grow up!!!
That's a shame and a new starter too iirc? I'd question your assessment that you've caused the problem by trying to restart too quickly simply because it would make such a racket that you'd realise pdq and change your procedure. I've done it a few times (my roadster is hard to start) and the screaching grind noise is alaming! How's the ring gear looking, and how was it before? And was the starter checked and shimmed if necessary as well at the depth of throw checked too?
Looks to me as if it's not been disengaging or the pinion 'has been riding on the ring gear slightly to cause so much damage in a short time (?), not helped by difficulty starting and having a loud exhaust!
Chris
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Bumper sticker - This is an historic vehicle and only has three speeds....... if you don't like this one you sure as hell won't like the others.
the mini starter i got for my 390 ford/c6 auto in my anglia didn't 'throw' far enough to fully engage the ring gear. i took the mounting flange off the starter and turned the face down on my lathe to sit the motor closer 'in'.
oh, and i'd happily weld 'false teeth' on that starter dog until the new part arrived. i've done it to starter ring gears that have a badly worn section before (more than once) and had no issues. always done in situ as well (too lazy to remove gearbox, lol), worst part was filing the weld down to a tooth shape.
neil.
Progress...
Seems MSD gave some duff gen.
Topspeed had the correct part with me on Friday.
Its the same part for all DynaForce starters, its just the BBF is for some reason not mentioned in any way!
The pinion gear is part of the whole central assembly so can't be replaced on it's own. (will look at welding up the teeth at some point, thanks Neil).
New part. With shim that's now not fitted.
Think I may have found the problem. Looking at the installation instructions (I know, I know, I'm a bloke, I don't do instructions!)
The distance from the ring gear to the starter mounting surface should be 5/8" to 11/16".
I have 13/16".
Instructions say if there is not enough clearance fit the shims provided.
Turns out the shims come ready fitted so my starter was to far out from the ring gear.
I've removed both shims from the starter so will now have more engagement on the pinion.
Just waiting for a press to re fit the new part into the housing.
Onward...
You have to get older, but you don't have to grow up!!!
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